[Support] status of our new images and a request (fwd)

In my experience, speakup works just fine on a system without
pulseaudio installed. I don't see what the complaint is about below.

Greg

Post by Jude DaShiell
--
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2016 18:55:58
Subject: Re: [Support] status of our new images and a request
hi
We've been wanting to make one for a while. We keep running into
either 1, issues with speakup when pulse audio is running, been
present for years and no one will own up to it or 2, brltty, which
can work as a console screen reader. Right now it doesn't support
the espeak fork, called espeak-ng, which sonar has switched to
using. It's rather embarrassing, and my own personal opinion is that
all the blind users who care about command line access, storm comes
to mind, should band together and bug the shit out of the speakup
people until they fix their bug. It's actually a combination of
speakup, and the fact that speakup runs in the kernel, which means
it runs as root, which means it's not subject to user permissions.
Why that means it doesn't produce sound I'm not sure, but it
doesn't. If pulse audio isn't running this just works, but otherwise
... shrug.
Thanks
Kendell clark

Hi,
ah sorry forgot about the command line users.
maybe interesting when there will be maybe some console based sonar isos.
greetings,
simon

youtube-viewer I use on talkingarch and would install and use that if
accessible in graphical environment if accessible. When I want to
search for channels in youtube-viewer I know how to do that.

Kendell, Is it possible that you pastebin the mentioned files so we
could take a look at it? There are some great pastebin sites like
slexy.org.

_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
http://sonargnulinux.com/mailman/listinfo/support_sonargnulinux.com

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

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Gregory Nowak

2016-02-15 03:21:19 UTC

Oops, I miswrote. The fix here is to compile espeakup against
pulseaudio. This change should not be made upstream, since that would
mean espeakup depends on pulseaudio, and there's certainly no reason
for that.

Greg

Post by Gregory Nowak
In my experience, speakup works just fine on a system without
pulseaudio installed. I don't see what the complaint is about below.
Greg

Hi,
ah sorry forgot about the command line users.
maybe interesting when there will be maybe some console based sonar isos.
greetings,
simon

youtube-viewer I use on talkingarch and would install and use that if
accessible in graphical environment if accessible. When I want to
search for channels in youtube-viewer I know how to do that.

Kendell, Is it possible that you pastebin the mentioned files so we
could take a look at it? There are some great pastebin sites like
slexy.org.

_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
http://sonargnulinux.com/mailman/listinfo/support_sonargnulinux.com

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

--
web site: http://www.gregn.net
gpg public key: http://www.gregn.net/pubkey.asc
skype: gregn1
(authorization required, add me to your contacts list first)
If we haven't been in touch before, e-mail me before adding me to your contacts.
--
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Alonzo Cuellar

2016-02-15 16:21:53 UTC

the problem is... Most applications require pulseaudio. You can choose
not to use it, but I'd think that would limit yourself not using
certain environments.

Alonzo

Post by Gregory Nowak
Oops, I miswrote. The fix here is to compile espeakup against
pulseaudio. This change should not be made upstream, since that would
mean espeakup depends on pulseaudio, and there's certainly no reason
for that.
Greg

Post by Gregory Nowak
In my experience, speakup works just fine on a system without
pulseaudio installed. I don't see what the complaint is about below.
Greg

Hi,
ah sorry forgot about the command line users.
maybe interesting when there will be maybe some console based sonar isos.
greetings,
simon

youtube-viewer I use on talkingarch and would install and use that if
accessible in graphical environment if accessible. When I want to
search for channels in youtube-viewer I know how to do that.

Kendell, Is it possible that you pastebin the mentioned files so we
could take a look at it? There are some great pastebin sites like
slexy.org.

_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
http://sonargnulinux.com/mailman/listinfo/support_sonargnulinux.com

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

--
web site: http://www.gregn.net
gpg public key: http://www.gregn.net/pubkey.asc
skype: gregn1
(authorization required, add me to your contacts list first)
If we haven't been in touch before, e-mail me before adding me to your contacts.
--
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Jude DaShiell

2016-02-15 16:53:10 UTC

Might it be useful to have a script that would automate the compilation
of speakup under pulseaudio as a post-install step for sonar in all of
the graphical user interface forms and possibly for command line forms
if those get developed? For sure sed would have to be available to such
a script to do necessary modifications on files before compilation but
that's a small enough package though I don't know which group manjaro
stores it if like archlinux I think base-devel.

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2016 11:21:53
Reply-To: Speakup is a screen review system for Linux.
Subject: Re: [Support] status of our new images and a request (fwd)
the problem is... Most applications require pulseaudio. You can choose
not to use it, but I'd think that would limit yourself not using
certain environments.
Alonzo

Post by Gregory Nowak
In my experience, speakup works just fine on a system without
pulseaudio installed. I don't see what the complaint is about below.
Greg

Hi,
ah sorry forgot about the command line users.
maybe interesting when there will be maybe some console based sonar

isos.

greetings,
simon

youtube-viewer I use on talkingarch and would install and use that if
accessible in graphical environment if accessible. When I want to
search for channels in youtube-viewer I know how to do that.

hi
Here goes. Packages-desktop, which is common packages that both gnome
and mate use, is pasted hear.
http://paste.pound-python.org/show/4Ykrak83Bhg4BjZF2EmH/.

Packages-gnome

can be seen hear.
http://paste.pound-python.org/show/o03gJEMO8B4IyN81dOcw/.

Packages-mate

can be seen hear,
http://paste.pound-python.org/show/RDbaW2X3Legc3zLOt63Y/.
Thanks
Kendell clark

Kendell, Is it possible that you pastebin the mentioned files so we
could take a look at it? There are some great pastebin sites like
slexy.org.

I'll

write back in as soon as the 32 bit and 64 bit images are uploaded.
Before I upload the images though, I want to do some serious

cleanup

on our software selection. I've tried installing just about every
piece of software under the sun that a blind person might possibly
want on the live image, mainly to show a newcomer exactly what

linux

can do. But I think it's more than past time to thin the selection,
at least on the live images, considerably. Would all of you who

can,

clone our software repository and look at the Packages-Desktop

file,

as well as the main packages-gnome and packages-mate files and tell
me what software can be cut? The image sizes are getting out of
control, they've just surpassed the 2.0 gb mark, and I'd like to

trim

that down. To get our git repository, open a terminal and issue the
following commands. Git clone
https://github.com/manjaro/manjaro-tools-iso-profiles.git. Wait for
it to clone, it shouldn't take too long, then change into the

folder,

then into the sonar folder. The packages-desktop file is shared
between the gnome and mate profiles, so it's in the shared folder.
The others are in the gnome and mate folders, respectively. Again,
I'll write back in when the images are uploaded but I'll wait on
community feedback so I know what to remove, and once I have that,
I'll then build the images and upload them to sourceforge. I'm

really

sorry for the long delay, but I was trying to get calamares into a
usable state, but it's just not there yet. Thank you all of you who
have been patient and waiting for new images, it's definitely been

little more trouble than last time, that's for sure, grins.
Thanks
Kendell clark
_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
http://sonargnulinux.com/mailman/listinfo/support_sonargnulinux.com

_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
http://sonargnulinux.com/mailman/listinfo/support_sonargnulinux.com

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

contacts.

Post by Gregory Nowak
--
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Kirk Reiser

2016-02-15 20:39:18 UTC

That may be true for X applications but for pure text console it
certainly is not. I removed pulse audio many years ago and all apps I
use on a daily bases such as espeakup, mplayer, aplay, linphone and
pjsua etc work just fine without pulse audio. They also work in stand
alone or with many occurrences running at the same time.

Kirk

Post by Alonzo Cuellar
the problem is... Most applications require pulseaudio. You can choose
not to use it, but I'd think that would limit yourself not using
certain environments.
Alonzo

Post by Gregory Nowak
In my experience, speakup works just fine on a system without
pulseaudio installed. I don't see what the complaint is about below.
Greg

Hi,
ah sorry forgot about the command line users.
maybe interesting when there will be maybe some console based sonar

isos.

greetings,
simon

youtube-viewer I use on talkingarch and would install and use that if
accessible in graphical environment if accessible. When I want to
search for channels in youtube-viewer I know how to do that.

hi
Here goes. Packages-desktop, which is common packages that both gnome
and mate use, is pasted hear.
http://paste.pound-python.org/show/4Ykrak83Bhg4BjZF2EmH/.

Packages-gnome

can be seen hear.
http://paste.pound-python.org/show/o03gJEMO8B4IyN81dOcw/.

Packages-mate

can be seen hear,
http://paste.pound-python.org/show/RDbaW2X3Legc3zLOt63Y/.
Thanks
Kendell clark

Kendell, Is it possible that you pastebin the mentioned files so we
could take a look at it? There are some great pastebin sites like
slexy.org.

I'll

write back in as soon as the 32 bit and 64 bit images are uploaded.
Before I upload the images though, I want to do some serious

cleanup

on our software selection. I've tried installing just about every
piece of software under the sun that a blind person might possibly
want on the live image, mainly to show a newcomer exactly what

linux

can do. But I think it's more than past time to thin the selection,
at least on the live images, considerably. Would all of you who

can,

clone our software repository and look at the Packages-Desktop

file,

as well as the main packages-gnome and packages-mate files and tell
me what software can be cut? The image sizes are getting out of
control, they've just surpassed the 2.0 gb mark, and I'd like to

trim

folder,

really

_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
http://sonargnulinux.com/mailman/listinfo/support_sonargnulinux.com

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

contacts.

Post by Gregory Nowak
--
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

--
Well that's it then, colour me secure!

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Al Sten-Clanton

2016-02-15 23:19:39 UTC

I had to reinstall on my Linux machine, and I went with Jesse. I
followed the Debian accessibility directions on getting Pulseaudio out
of the way so that I could continue to use Speakup. I found that both
Speakup and Orca spoke, but I also found that I couldn't get sound when
I tried to listen to streaming on

radio.macinmind.org

using the HTML 5 player. I got Pulseaudio working again, disabled the
espeakup service, and created a script to get Speakup talking after I've
logged in. I didn't have the non-playing audio problem on my previous
set-up, where I used Arch Linux and no Pulseaudio (and brought up the
GUI with startx), so I don't know what I may have done wrong here. I do
at least have Speakup available, but will be glad for any thoughts on this.

Al

Post by Kirk Reiser
That may be true for X applications but for pure text console it
certainly is not. I removed pulse audio many years ago and all apps I
use on a daily bases such as espeakup, mplayer, aplay, linphone and
pjsua etc work just fine without pulse audio. They also work in stand
alone or with many occurrences running at the same time.
Kirk

Post by Alonzo Cuellar
the problem is... Most applications require pulseaudio. You can choose
not to use it, but I'd think that would limit yourself not using
certain environments.
Alonzo

Post by Gregory Nowak
In my experience, speakup works just fine on a system without
pulseaudio installed. I don't see what the complaint is about below.
Greg

Hi,
ah sorry forgot about the command line users.
maybe interesting when there will be maybe some console based sonar

isos.

greetings,
simon

youtube-viewer I use on talkingarch and would install and use that if
accessible in graphical environment if accessible. When I want to
search for channels in youtube-viewer I know how to do that.

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2016 05:23:12
Subject: Re: [Support] status of our new images and a request
Hi,
elinks: Is someone using that? seems not to work on my system.
youtube-viewer: never used it used firefox.
rythmbox: replacing it with audacious? gtk ipod tool is
installed as
well. no good solution?
veracrypt from aur: disk and container encryption tool. pretty
accessible.
audacious: maybe better than rythmbox
corebird: twitter client. pretty accessible.
packages-gnome: no ideas what to remove or add.
packages-mate: no ideas what to remove or add.
greetings,
simon

hi
Here goes. Packages-desktop, which is common packages that both gnome
and mate use, is pasted hear.
http://paste.pound-python.org/show/4Ykrak83Bhg4BjZF2EmH/.

Packages-gnome

can be seen hear.
http://paste.pound-python.org/show/o03gJEMO8B4IyN81dOcw/.

Packages-mate

can be seen hear,
http://paste.pound-python.org/show/RDbaW2X3Legc3zLOt63Y/.
Thanks
Kendell clark

Kendell, Is it possible that you pastebin the mentioned files so we
could take a look at it? There are some great pastebin sites like
slexy.org.

I'll

write back in as soon as the 32 bit and 64 bit images are uploaded.
Before I upload the images though, I want to do some serious

cleanup

on our software selection. I've tried installing just about every
piece of software under the sun that a blind person might possibly
want on the live image, mainly to show a newcomer exactly what

linux

can do. But I think it's more than past time to thin the selection,
at least on the live images, considerably. Would all of you who

can,

clone our software repository and look at the Packages-Desktop

file,

as well as the main packages-gnome and packages-mate files and tell
me what software can be cut? The image sizes are getting out of
control, they've just surpassed the 2.0 gb mark, and I'd like to

trim

folder,

really

_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
http://sonargnulinux.com/mailman/listinfo/support_sonargnulinux.com

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

contacts.

Post by Gregory Nowak
--
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Alonzo Cuellar

2016-02-16 12:31:21 UTC

Hello,
I understand. But for users who use x then using speakup is difficult.
It doesn't pose a problem when only in console mode.
I've used all the applications you've mentioned under Alsa as well. when
I first started using Linux I used mostly the console. Later on as time
went by I started using X more and more. While I still use the console
I'm in X a lot of the time.
If Speakup doesn't play nice with Pulse for ages to come I'd understand why.
I'd think though that even for Speakup to be more portable it would
serve better in user space.
Since it currently has to play sound via root that allows you to get
access to the login prompt. Add to that though I wonder if speechd-up
would solve this problem for Speakup to be running threw
speech-dispatcher making everything use one server for speech for
accessibility.
I'm not sure that Pulse can issue sound to a processes running as a daemon.
Just my two cents.

Alonzo

Post by Alonzo Cuellar
the problem is... Most applications require pulseaudio. You can
choose not to use it, but I'd think that would limit yourself not
using certain environments.
Alonzo

Post by Gregory Nowak
In my experience, speakup works just fine on a system without
pulseaudio installed. I don't see what the complaint is about below.
Greg

Hi,
ah sorry forgot about the command line users.
maybe interesting when there will be maybe some console based sonar

isos.

greetings,
simon

youtube-viewer I use on talkingarch and would install and use that if
accessible in graphical environment if accessible. When I want to
search for channels in youtube-viewer I know how to do that.

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2016 05:23:12
Subject: Re: [Support] status of our new images and a request
Hi,
elinks: Is someone using that? seems not to work on my system.
youtube-viewer: never used it used firefox.
rythmbox: replacing it with audacious? gtk ipod tool is
installed as
well. no good solution?
veracrypt from aur: disk and container encryption tool. pretty
accessible.
audacious: maybe better than rythmbox
corebird: twitter client. pretty accessible.
packages-gnome: no ideas what to remove or add.
packages-mate: no ideas what to remove or add.
greetings,
simon

hi
Here goes. Packages-desktop, which is common packages that both gnome
and mate use, is pasted hear.
http://paste.pound-python.org/show/4Ykrak83Bhg4BjZF2EmH/.

Packages-gnome

can be seen hear.
http://paste.pound-python.org/show/o03gJEMO8B4IyN81dOcw/.

Packages-mate

can be seen hear,
http://paste.pound-python.org/show/RDbaW2X3Legc3zLOt63Y/.
Thanks
Kendell clark

Kendell, Is it possible that you pastebin the mentioned files so we
could take a look at it? There are some great pastebin sites like
slexy.org.

I'll

write back in as soon as the 32 bit and 64 bit images are uploaded.
Before I upload the images though, I want to do some serious

cleanup

on our software selection. I've tried installing just about every
piece of software under the sun that a blind person might possibly
want on the live image, mainly to show a newcomer exactly what

linux

can do. But I think it's more than past time to thin the selection,
at least on the live images, considerably. Would all of you who

can,

clone our software repository and look at the Packages-Desktop

file,

as well as the main packages-gnome and packages-mate files and tell
me what software can be cut? The image sizes are getting out of
control, they've just surpassed the 2.0 gb mark, and I'd like to

trim

folder,

really

_______________________________________________
Support mailing list
http://sonargnulinux.com/mailman/listinfo/support_sonargnulinux.com

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

contacts.

Post by Gregory Nowak
--
_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

_______________________________________________
Speakup mailing list
http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/speakup

Chris Brannon

2016-02-15 19:06:24 UTC

Post by Jude DaShiell
It's actually a combination of speakup, and the fact
that speakup runs in the kernel, which means it runs as root, which
means it's not subject to user permissions. Why that means it doesn't
produce sound I'm not sure, but it doesn't. If pulse audio isn't
running this just works, but otherwise ... shrug.

So the problem is: pulse will not play audio as root. I'd
argue that espeakup should probably be running as a separate user
anyway. It only needs root perms to open /dev/softsynth. So it could
drop privileges as soon as it opens the device, or ownership could be
set on the device so that it is readable / writable by members of a
certain group, say "speakup", of which the user account running espeakup
is a member. That account would also need to be a member of the audio
group so that espeakup can actually play audio.

But it's not going to solve the initial problem, which is that pulse
will not play nice with espeakup.
The user running espeakup needs to be able to play audio all the time,
not just whenever pulseaudio and whatever layers of indirection are
sitting under it feel like giving it access to the sound device.

As far as I can tell, in order to actually play audio with pulse audio,
the user who requests access to the audio card actually needs to be
physically logged in to the machine. So a pseudo user under which a
system daemon is running can not play audio via the sound card.
In other words, AFAIK system-wide daemons that run in a manner similar
to espeakup cannot play audio on the machine's sound card using pulse.
If someone knows differently, I'd be grateful to stand corrected.

-- Chris

Jude DaShiell

2016-02-17 11:49:52 UTC

--

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 23:42:51
From: Kyle via Support <***@sonargnulinux.com>
Reply-To: Kyle <***@gmx.ca>
To: "***@sonargnulinux.com" <***@sonargnulinux.com>
Subject: Re: [Support] status of our new images and a request

I am also able to use Speakup in combination with Pulseaudio on one machine,
but that is because it has a Soundblaster Live Value, which never blocks when a
sound is playing. This, and a few other cards,, including it seems the chip on
the Raspberry Pi2, are capable of playing multiple sounds at once, whereas most
cards are capable of only playing a single sound, and mixing of more than one
sound must be done in software. This is what Pulseaudio does very well. It
routes many sounds at once being generated by one user's processes through a
single sound card that can normally play only one sound at a time.
Consequently, as long as Pulseaudio has the sound device open, the card cannot
play any other sound, and if Speakup is playing Espeak through that card,
Pulseaudio can't get at it. Sadly, this is the rule, and the ability to play
both at once is the exception. This appears to the cause of all conflicts
between Speakup and Pulseaudio, and there is little that may be able to be done
that can fix that, short of running one or the other through a second card.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong now, but this has been my experience on
various machines.

Sent from my IMAP compatible e-mail device

Jude DaShiell

2016-02-17 11:51:27 UTC